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Subject: "Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. Thoug"
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Archived thread - Read only
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denis
Member since Nov-9-05
42 posts |
Dec-09-05, 02:52 PM (EDT) |
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"Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. Thoug"
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From: http://abacus-es.net/motorscooter/stepless.html What is a Stepless Transmission? With a stepless transmission there is no clutch, there is no gear shift, and on a scooter, there is not even a shift control of any sort. One does not not even sense a shift of gears while driving. This makes scooter riding extremely simple and easy but there are a couple of dangers that are worth noting. First some basic concepts. The internal combustion engine is most powerful when running within fairly narrow RPM (Rotations Per Minute) range (unlike other engines such as steam or electric which are not nearly as limited). In order to accelerate a vehicle over a wide range of velocities while the engine remains within its optimum RPM range, gears are used to change the ratio of motor RPM to wheel RPM. In manual and standard automatic transmissions these ratio shifts take place several times during acceleration and are handled manually by the driver or automatically by the transmission respectively. More correctly known as a Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), the stepless transmission used in most modern motorscooters is a type of automatic transmission whose "gear ratio" changes automatically to any arbitrary setting within the limits of the system and is not constrained to a discrete series of specific ratios -- the 3 or 4 ratios of typical automotive transmissions. As a result, accelerating with a CVT is a very smooth uninterrupted process. On the motorscooter, this effect is achieved using a belt between two pulleys whose effective radii are variable and change according to the speed of the vehicle -- one radius increasing while the other decreases -- thus accommodating a constant belt length. Things to watch for
Normally the driver of a CVT scooter need pay little heed to the transmission operation but there are some points to keep in mind. It is easy to go faster than you realize. When accelerating, the engine at first revs up to its comfortable RPM range and then remains there while acceleration continues as the ratio changes to make wheel RPM faster while engine RPM remains the same. The driver of traditional transmissions is used to gauging vehicle speed by motor speed as, within one gear, they are always fixed relative to each other. Such a driver is not expecting vehicle speed to continue increasing while engine RPMs remain constant and may easily not notice as speed increases. In order to accelerate to, and then maintain an optimum target speed on a CVT motorscooter, one has to get used to engine speeds first increasing, then remaining constant, and, as one approaches the desired speed, easing off on the throttle and experiencing and recognizing the seemingly unnatural sensation of motor speed decreasing while vehicle speed continues to increase -- yes, that is exactly what is happening as the CVT continues to shift gradually up. Scooterists find themselves automatically making accommodation for this phenomenon, in many cases without even noting this peculiar anomaly which is thoroughly unknown with traditional gearing systems. Still it is worth knowing what is happening and understanding the process. Stepless transmission: belt slip
Belts do stretch over time and as they loosen fail to transmit power to the wheels. Belt replacement is one of the standard maintenance chores of the CVT scooterist. Belt replacement is much like replacing a vacuum cleaner belt. Illustrations will be added when available. Symptoms indicating belt replacement are very simply: engine is running fine but scooter is not going anywhere. Keep a spare belt handy. Apparent but deceptive belt slip When one starts climbing a steep hill with some speed, one experiences another sensation unknown to drivers of traditional transmissions -- the scooter slows down dramatically while motor speed increases. This can certainly give the impression that the belt is slipping, that the work of the engine is becoming ineffectual. Actually, this is simply the effect of the CVT "gearing down." Of course, when the belt does begin to slip, it stands to reason than it will first be noticeable going up a steep hill, so pay attention to what is happening. Denis In Praise of Motorscooters http://abacus-es.net/motorscooter |
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Nate from Ogden
Member since Aug-24-05
118 posts |
Dec-09-05, 03:33 PM (EDT) |
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1. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #0
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denis
Member since Nov-9-05
42 posts |
Dec-09-05, 05:13 PM (EDT) |
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2. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #1
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It's trying to be comprehensive. Any suggestions on how it could better promote scooter usage would be appreicated. Denis In Praise of Motorscooters http://abacus-es.net/motorscooter |
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Mojo
Member since Sep-27-05
270 posts |
Dec-10-05, 00:57 AM (EDT) |
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3. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #2
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Aside: You know, they are starting to put the same kind of transmission in some cars. I know a couple of Audi models have it, and I recently read about the new Nissan Murano having one as well. I'm interested to know what driving a car with a CVT is like. Brandon 2005 TN'G Low Boy 150 2005 Kymco Bet & Win 250 I want to die like my grandfather, sleeping peacefully; not like his passengers, panicking and screaming. |
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denis
Member since Nov-9-05
42 posts |
Dec-10-05, 01:08 AM (EDT) |
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4. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #3
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Itchybug
Member since Nov-7-05
128 posts |
Dec-10-05, 01:26 AM (EDT) |
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5. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #3
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-05 AT 01:29 AM (EDT) >Aside: > >You know, they are starting to put the same kind of >transmission in some cars. I know a couple of Audi models >have it, and I recently read about the new Nissan Murano >having one as well. I'm interested to know what driving a >car with a CVT is like. The CVT was invented by Hub van Doorne, founder of DAF, a Dutch automobile manufacturer, I believe it was in the 1950's. Its first commercial use was in thousands of DAF 33, 44, 55 cars and some other models. The DAF automobile was known for being a very attractive car for "old people" and people who have trouble with gearsticks and clutches for whatever reason. Just a brake and a gas pedal, and only P, D and R on the shifter. It worked better in European cars than the automatic transmissions of the day because old model automatics didn't play well with little engines. A really cool side-effect of having a CVT: It goes as fast in reverse as it does forward (same transmission), so the Dutch actually have reverse DAF races, where the contestants have to navigate by looking over their shoulder the whole way. As far as driving a car with a CVT is concerned, you beat almost any car through the intersection when the light turns green! It has a very smooth feel to it as you magically speed up while the motor never changes its hum. DAF cars came with a restrictor that could be engaged by the driver when going downhill. Over the years there have been many cars with CVT's, I believe Daihatsu or another small Japanese car maker has a model, and Volvo (its Dutch division) makes or at least used to make CVT cars. Edit: bumped by denis... Bert
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lapuwali
Member since Nov-22-05
17 posts |
Dec-10-05, 03:14 AM (EDT) |
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6. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #5
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Subaru sold a CVT version of the Justy here for some time.The main problem with the CVT (until recently) has been a serious problem with transmitting much torque. The van Doorne system is indeed very similar to the type used in most scooters, but there are quite a few other types, some of which predate the van Doorne system by several decades. All of them had torque problems until Williams-Renault produced a CVT drive for an Formula One car in the mid 90s (producing something north of 900hp), but the technology was banned before it could be raced, because the car was so fast. Audi found the solution with a chain-like driver rather than a belt, and they claim it can operate up to 250ft/lbs of torque, which is very good indeed, and may be based on the Williams design, to some extent. As noted, an internal combustion engine of a given displacement can be tuned to make a great deal of power over a very narrow range of engine speeds, or it can be tuned to make less power over a broader range. A CVT allows a wide range of road speeds with a narrow range of engine speeds, so you can get much more power out of a smaller engine and retain good drivability. This also gives much better fuel economy for a given amount of power. The Prius uses a CVT of a very different design to the van Doorne system, using an electronically controlled plantary geartrain. |
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Bryce Ludwig
Member since Dec-21-03
4441 posts |
Dec-10-05, 03:41 AM (EDT) |
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7. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #6
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I think the Prius uses a conventional, though computer controlled, CVT. The planetary gearset is to determine whether power is coming from the gas engine, the electric motor, or some combination thereof. - Bryce Ludwig |
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automattic
Member since Dec-5-05
95 posts |
Dec-10-05, 08:12 PM (EDT) |
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8. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #7
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The new Ford 500 / Mercury Montego are available with a CVT transmission. |
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cv

unregistered user
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Dec-11-05, 11:39 AM (EDT) |
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9. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #8
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I drove the Mini Cooper with the CVT. Weird how it just keeps accelerating without those surges your get used to in a car. |
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wombatWheeler
Member since Nov-26-05
240 posts |
Dec-14-05, 11:23 PM (EDT) |
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10. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #9
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>I drove the Mini Cooper with the CVT. Weird how it just >keeps accelerating without those surges your get used to in >a car. I had a Mini-Cooper years ago, a 1962, but I don't remember a CVT option? I do remember that it was faster than those weird little DAF Daffodils, though. And it had 10" wheels just like my scooter does. Seriously, I think the CVT concept is great and we'll be seeing lots more of them in the future. Someday my grandkids will be asking me what a "stickshift" was? I hope I'm retired from the auto mechanics business before I have to start replacing CVT belts on Hummers, though. Barry |
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Cyberian2
Member since Aug-4-05
95 posts |
Dec-15-05, 00:06 AM (EDT) |
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11. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #10
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> >I had a Mini-Cooper years ago, a 1962, but I don't remember >a CVT option? I'm pretty sure that the original Mini did not offer a CVT. I think that they were all 4-speeds. I think the Honda Insight hybrid has one now, as did a few slightly older older Civics (95, 96, 97?) |
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lapuwali
Member since Nov-22-05
17 posts |
Dec-15-05, 00:33 AM (EDT) |
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12. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #11
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The "old" Mini (1959-2000) had 4-speed manual and conventional automatic transmissions available, but never a CVT. The auto was fairly rare. The "new" MINI made by BMW has a CVT option (might be Europe only). |
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wombatWheeler
Member since Nov-26-05
240 posts |
Dec-18-05, 07:20 PM (EDT) |
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13. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #12
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>The "old" Mini (1959-2000) had 4-speed manual and >conventional automatic transmissions available, but never a >CVT. The auto was fairly rare. The "new" MINI made by BMW >has a CVT option (might be Europe only). You're right, tha original mini didn't have a CVT. I never saw one with the auto, either, but I think it was the same unit used in the larger MG1100. I seem to remember that there was something unusual, at least at the time, about the auto gearbox, but can't remember what? A buddy bought a wrecked MG1100 to use the motor in his Mini; afterward we cut the car into pieces with a torch and took it to the scrapyard in a big Ford pickup. I remember the hydraulic fluid shooting about 100 feet in the air when we cut thru the lines connecting the front and rear suspension units. Ah, to be young and stupid again (as opposed to just stupid)  Barry |
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partyanimal
Member since Dec-17-05
21 posts |
Dec-18-05, 09:15 PM (EDT) |
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14. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #13
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Nice article Denis ! Noticed cars mention with CVT but what about snowmobiles they all have it and kits available with ramps and different clutch weights /springs that will make these up shift & down shift at any rpm you want . Just another modification that could be done to a scooter also . One might have to make there own parts though . PARTYANIMAL
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Mr D
Member since Apr-21-05
19 posts |
Dec-31-05, 03:36 AM (EDT) |
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15. "RE: Thoughts on The Stepless Automatic Transmission. T"
In response to message #0
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I've been around snowmobiles for 40 odd years and in that time all I've ever seen is CVT's. |
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