I wondered about Classical-Wheels, glad you had a good experience.

The knee-jerk "if it's from Vietnam it's a death trap" crap, just seems so lame. If it's from Italy it must be good, eh??? ASC is selling rebuilt Indian VBB's (really cheap BTW) and GP200's. Somehow, the third world scoot bagging doesn't extend to them.

Anyway, "caveat emptor" applies no matter where it's from. I, personally, wouldn't buy a scoot from Italy, Germany, Holland, Vietnam, Indonesia, India......unless the seller had a verifiable track record.

There are some good articles in the back issues of Scoot Quarterly regarding buying from SE Asia.

Cheers

John

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Do some research on why this is so. Indian companies had the tooling to manufacture the scooters and the spare parts. This is why you normally don't see bodging on Indian bikes, because they actually had the proper parts to fix the bikes right.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

There is a lot more to a scooter, and the overall safety of a scooter, than an engine. Also, Randal replaces lots of things on his scooters, those Johnny Beware guys and ClassicWheels shops do not.

You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the feeling people have on Asian "restorations". I am sure there is a small percentage of bikes that aren't plagued with these problems, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I think though that you did kinda hit the nail one the head when you said that whatever I say is not going to change the "feeling" that others have re Asian bikes. Problem is that people who have never seen one have this "feeling". In fact, they are actually talking out of their assholes trying to be part of the gang. You seem to realize that not all Asian scoots are bodged. Scootrs having a better rep. But, why do you think that CW doesn't replace "lots of thing"? Ever see one, ride one, wrench on one?

The guy that posted here, Samiq, who has owned 2 of them and visited their facility would seem to be ahead of the game when it comes to CW.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Lots of these shops have a presence. Some guy with a warehouse that bought a few container loads of scooters. These bikes are sold as-is with a limited 90-day warantee.

>I think though that you did kinda hit the nail one the head
>when you said that whatever I say is not going to change the
>"feeling" that others have re Asian bikes. Problem is that
>people who have never seen one have this "feeling". In
>fact, they are actually talking out of their assholes trying
>to be part of the gang. You seem to realize that not all
>Asian scoots are bodged. Scootrs having a better rep. But,
>why do you think that CW doesn't replace "lots of thing"?
>Ever see one, ride one, wrench on one?

Actually most people here on the ScooterBBS have seen and worked on these bikes. Most of the people who post here work on their own, and others bikes. We have all seen the horror of Asian "restorations". Yes, a few were sold to kids in Seattle when I lived there. The scooters were crap. I may still have photos, I will see if I can dig them up.

I do not profess in any way to be a mechanical expert and fully acknowledge the vast experience of some who post on these boards, but when I see new motor, new electric, new shocks, new cables, new brakes, I'm pretty sure that about covers just about everything.

I'm really convinced that the re-built engines are the source of much of the griping about bikes from Nam. And to me thats buyer beware. don't buy a nam scooter with a re-built engine.
I'd also point out a frined of mine's situation with his USA re-built rally200 engine. That went back to a well known shop in SanFrancisco 3 times and they still couldn't get it right.

Part of the problem is that we like vintage scooters. They were cheap to begin with and we expect them to be perfect some 30-40 years later. Of course stuff breaks. Purists may not like new motors on them etc etc. That's fine. Purists like that wouldn't buy from nam anyways.

The experience of seeing some of the assembly being done and the basic maintenance I have done myself in the last year has given me a really healthy respect for just how fragile our safety is on scooters. Perhaps I'm overly paranoid but every Saturday morning I go over the scooter and make sure everything is tight and nothing's come loose.

I think this is extra important when considering my touting of putting new engines on them. The new engines create more power/speed than the original design of a 60's scooter was ever meant to have. That in turn must create more vibration and stresses than anticipated on the drawing board. Safety first!!!

The other thing is most people who buyb from CW do not know what to look for, CW markets them as nice toys basically.

Samiq, Mike from NoHo Scooters has posted some pictures that would scare any rational being from getting on an Asian bike. You could do a search of this BBS-they'll show up!

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

<http://www.scooterbbs.com/board/DCForumID1/35630.html>

I'd contend that this doesn't mean all Asian bikes are put together like this. It certainly hurts the general reputation of them. And it makes it hard for the good guys to build their business. There's so much inventory out there, and if we could get more quality work coming into the west then I'm all for it. The more classic rides around the better.

<http://216.46.238.5/video/v019_saigon_traffic.wmv>

The subject here was CW's quality specifically which is why i jumped in as I've experience with them. Again I'd really like to get my hands on the CW pics of bad things from the past. Just so I can show them and report back the response.
My hat's off to ScootRS. Clearly they worked on some level with this community and have established somewhat of a decent reputation. It can be done. It would be good to see more.

These were from ClassicWheels.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

At this point I truly think I got lucky learning that CW was local to me and I therefore had an easy comeback if I had problems. The experience I've had has truly been outstanding. That's why I jumped into this post to begin with.
As I've read the board over the last year. I've come to two conclusions about this topic.
a) there is an elitist element here that lives and breathes scooters. This group appears to have a unilateral hatred of imported vintage scooters.
b) There are a lot of bad imported vintage scooters, but to label all of them as such is unfair and prejudicial.

As for the mileage. Yep. 2k isn't that much. not all just around town tho'. longest rides about 150miles total. And there's been several of those.

I'd like to see improvements in imported vintage scooters and removal of the obviously bad shops. They're not going to go away. Specific to this post's subject I'd like to get "netweasel's" CW pics from past scooters and get them to the source so that I can report back the response and see if the issues from back then are still occurring.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Because most of the people buying ClassicWheels scooters are completely new to scooters. if you don't understand why people buy them, perhaps they should not offer them!!

>The main guy who does the work is a 110% solid guy
>and the bad rap ticks me off.

Their reputation speaks for themselves. If somebody has put out junk in the past, it is up to them to own up to it and make good to all the customers they have ripper off. Reputations are earned; good or bad.

Simple yet profoundly written. That's a damn good point. That's actually what I was kinda saying. I was just looking at it from the price difference angle. There's an unfortunate truism to some of the folks that buy. They see a shiny toy and have an unrealistic expectation as to what to expect. I'm NOT defending poor workmanship by saying this. But I do think it factors into this somewhere along the way.
As 'newish' as I may be I fully expected that buying a 40yr old scooter would mean that I'd be learning really quickly how to maintain and work on it. Heck, to me, that's part of the enjoyment of it. However I don't think that just 'cos I think this way that all who buy share my sentiments on this.
So to that end I think the onus is on the seller, no matter who it is, to help make sure that the customer knows what they are getting into. If the predominant purchaser of these is 'new' then yeah - new motors only, would probably be a darn good idea.

I am still getting the impression that many scooterists are of the opinion that if the bike came from Asia, it's automatically bad!

Earlier in the thread I talked about someone having a presence in California and Netweasel responded with something about operating out of a warehouse with a few containers of scooters. My understanding is that Classical Wheels actually assembles bikes in California and is a California DMV licensed dealer.

Incidentally, selling a scooter "as is" and with a "90 day warranty" are diametrically opposed concepts.

Licensed dealers, especially those who do any kind of assembling of any product in California, have almost unlimited financial exposure in case of a fucked up bike hurting/killing someone. I would be interested in seeing what kind of liability insurance policy Classical Wheels has. I haven't checked to see if the California DMV requires licensed dealers to carry a set amount of coverage.

Netweasel, you have some pics of Classical Wheels bodges? Please post them, I don't think I'm the only one that would like to see them.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Yes, this should go for any motorized vehicle. If you don't understand the safety aspect than you are fooling yourself.

>I am still getting the impression that many scooterists are
>of the opinion that if the bike came from Asia, it's
>automatically bad!

99.9% of the time it is true. Good vintage scooters from Asia are the exception NOT the rule/

>Earlier in the thread I talked about someone having a
>presence in California and Netweasel responded with
>something about operating out of a warehouse with a few
>containers of scooters. My understanding is that Classical
>Wheels actually assembles bikes in California and is a
>California DMV licensed dealer.

Maybe as of recently they do, but they sold a lot of scooters right out of Asia without a US "shop".

>Incidentally, selling a scooter "as is" and with a "90 day
>warranty" are diametrically opposed concepts.

They should be, but in the world of asian "restos" they are not. The warranty states:

All scooters have a full 90 day warranty on new parts ( not on rebuilt parts). So anything frame, case, or old part related is not covered.

>Licensed dealers, especially those who do any kind of
>assembling of any product in California, have almost
>unlimited financial exposure in case of a fucked up bike
>hurting/killing someone. I would be interested in seeing
>what kind of liability insurance policy Classical Wheels
>has. I haven't checked to see if the California DMV
>requires licensed dealers to carry a set amount of coverage.

Are they even a licensed dealer now or ever? There are no names at all on the website. There website is registered to somebody at the University of Richmond.

>Netweasel, you have some pics of Classical Wheels bodges?
>Please post them, I don't think I'm the only one that would
>like to see them.

I looked, could not find them, this is from 4 years ago. Don't try to infer that I am lying, ask ANY shop if they have dealt with a ClassicWheels bike, most have.

You said that 99.9% of the time Asian scoots are bad? Quite a statistic! Where did you get that figure from???? Is it from an independently verifiable source or did you come up with that yourself. And, if you came up with it yourself, how many of the thousands of scoots that have been exported from Asia have you, personally, inspected???

Warranties: I don't disagree with you, however, that is a common term with used bikes. For example, this is from SCOMO:

"Like all of our complete mechanical restorations, we are selling this Sprint with a 6 month warranty on the engine, transmission, all that kind of stuff. Of course, that does not cover the new owner not putting oil in or anything like that. "

(You'll note that the frame, etc is not covered.)

This is from ASC:

"90 Day limited warranty on the motor. 180 Day limited warranty on parts."

(You'll note, once again, that the frame, etc is not covered.)

Any business can have it's website hosted anywhere! Proves nothing!

I have access to a database at my office and I think I will be able to find out the requirements for a California DMV Motorcycle Dealers License and, maybe, be able to verify if ClassicalWheels is indeed licensed.

I will report back!

Oh, before I forget, I could also "ask ANY shop" if they have dealt with a Vespa, Lambretta, Stella, Bajaj...I could go on... and most would say yes. Go to Stellaspeed.com and scroll through the tales of woe (and the happy) postings of people who bought those bikes new.

We'll never know about the gripes of those who bought their Vespas etc in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

I wonder what the licensing requirements are for an importer that sells across the entire nation and if the vintage nature of them has any bearing on the question?
I can accurately report that for every scooter sold in CA that they handle the registration themselves and that they get every scooter CHP inspected. I think even ScootRS customers have to do their own registration in CA - but I'll willingly stand to be corrected on that.

Also I'm still working on getting an independent review done. So far it looks promising. If the work and efforts for quality I'm seeing are right, (and again i'm no expert!) then it deserves to be known about. Conversely if I'm dead wrong that'd be good to know too!

And for some tongue in cheek about quality remember the Italians don't have the greatest rep. either. There's a reason people say "FIAT" stands for Fix It Again Tony!

Classical Wheels
3222 Lamond Ct.,
San Jose, CA 954148

Business license issued 4/1/02

Good Price Parts
3071 Centerwood Way
San Jose

Owner : Huy Truong Le

I also did a search of the following court jurisdictions to see if any lawsuits had been filed against Classical Wheels:

Contra Costa Marin San Bernardino San Mateo
Fresno Orange San Diego Santa Barbara
Kern Riverside San Francisco Santa Clara
Los Angeles Sacramento San Luis Obispo Ventura

They have not been named in any lawsuits. I think that's important because if their bikes were dangerous enough to cause injuries, they'd be getting sued.

Getting a motorcycle dealers license seems to be easy in California. You pay a fee and they do a background check. It's harder to get an automotive dealers license, they have classes and a test as well.

Samiq, if you get a Scootrs bike you have to take care of the licensing yourself.

John

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

IF most of the customers lived in California they might file suit.

They don't need to live in California to file a lawsuit in California. California law is that a person or entity can be sued where they reside or have their place of business. Of course, it's not quite simple, in cases where there is complete diversity of citizenship, the defendant can have it removed to federal court but in a case with an outfit like Classical Wheels, even if a case was removed to Federal court, the proper jurisdiction would most likely be a Federal court in California. California substantive law would still apply, the main difference is that Federal procedural rules would apply which means, among other things, a smaller jury, but still a California jury.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Re-read what I wrote:

"IF most of the customers lived in California they MIGHT file suit."

"MIGHT" being the key word. If a customer doesn't know what a hunk-of-junk they bought, they will probably attribute an accident to rider error. Plus after their "warranty" the bike is as-is and is the responsibility of the owner.

Not neccessarily, outfits who rebuild bikes and do so negligently would have liability regardless of what the warranty says!!!!! Personally, if someone was hurt because of a "bodged" bike, I'd hit them with a lawsuit based on Negligence, Products Liability (based on the fact they are remanufacturing/redesigning) and Breach of Warranty. (legally there are several types of warranties, both express and implied). Then let the chips would fall where they may, but I'd win on one of those theories.

BTW, people who are hurt bad want to find someone else at fault to pay for what happened to them. Think about it for a second, rider going down the street, front wheel falls off, rider fucked up and says oh, my fault "rider error" Engine locks up because beer cans are used as shims in the tranny, rider says oops, my fault "rider error".

That doesn't happen in the real world. Rider or his/her family want to know why and if the scoots are as bad as you say, the "why" can be located at any reputable shop.

That's why I place such importance on CW being a California company, DMV licensed and having no history of being the defendant in lawsuits. It's a good sign!!!!

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

Jumbo, Vespas and Lambrettas are Italian, ya sure you're not looking for the Harley BBS???

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretzky

To get a license you take a few hours of class, then there’s the test at the DMV, then the DMV inspects your place of business. If you don’t meet their standards and the city your issued a business license in, you don’t get your dealers license. The only difference might be the amount of a bond you carry. Auto or bike.