Actually does make a lot of sense for compliance and conformity.
For who knows whats going on when no one is watching.

Ellen
2005 Stella
http://www.scooterdiva.com

I believe that is how it works. Tank scooters say "Manufactured by KTMMEX, Made in China" and TN'G scooters say Manufactured by CMSI, made in China". The country of origin is correct and the manufacturer is correct using the guidelines in paragraph (i) in my post above.

But now some TN'G scooters say "Manufactured by CMSI, Made in the USA" (the ones assembled in NC).

The way it was explained to me by David COleman of NHTSA is that the factory that actually assembles the chassis is the manufacturer. No exceptions. So, I can bring in a separate engine and an otherwise completely assembled bike into US and stamp my own manufacturer ID on it, but if this operation was done in China, it has to have the WMI of the factory that did that.

I love to argue with someone who is as stubborn and hardheaded as me. We're both probably wrong and we won't admit it. But here goes.

Here are the definitions that are integrated in the NHSTA.

565.6(a) The first section (of the VIN number) shall consist of three characters that occupy one through three (1-3) in the VIN. This section shall uniquely identify the MANUFACTURER, make and type of motor vehicle........

The definition of manufacturer in 565.3(h) is:

Manufacturer means a person (1) Manufacturing or assembling motor vehicles or motor vehicle equipment; OR (2) Importing motor vehicles or motor vehicle equipment for resale.

565.3(k) Plant of manufacture means the plant where the manufacturer affixes the VIN.

To use your explanation then 565.6(a) needs to be changed to read: The first section (of the VIN number) shall consist of three characters that occupy one through three (1-3) in the VIN. The section shall uniquely identify the PLANT OF MANUFACTURE, make and type of motor vehicle....

No where does it say that "they still have to use the WMI of actual assembler".

What makes the whole thing even better is that states like NJ will see a "3" as the first character of VIN and decide that since this is not a Chinese bike, it must be legal... so you can see the advantage of using non-Chinese WMI.

So, if I'm making a legal argument, I should be able to use a US WMI on a Chinese bike as long as I control the production and I'm the importer. Talking to NHTSA and EPA, however, they make it absolutely clear that I can't do that. It seems that there is no enforcement one way or the other and companies that try to follow what NHTSA and EPA say simply end up spending more money with no apparent benefit.

From past experience when I have encountered what you describe above (in non-scooter scenarios), I just try to follow what I interpret the law to be and then let the government prove me wrong. Rarely do they have the time, manpower or sense to do that. The biggest enforcer is usually the competition. They are sort of like the divorcing wife. They are sometimes out to get you no matter what.

If you are not on your big competitors radar screen, just do what you think is legal. If you get the strongly worded letter from the government, just say you are sorry and do what they say. Doubt that will happen anytime soon though. It seems as if your big Chinese scooter importer competitors are playing the game as I am suggesting.

And I can tell you from first hand experience that Tank is kicking ass in the US market. I can't quote figures here, but they are killing their better known China scooter competitors big time. It's not even close from what I have seen and heard from the actual consumers who have contacted us.

Another means to 'bend' the rules a bit would be for a US importer to create the VIN codes using their WMI... and send the VINs and labels to the 'Plant of Manufacture' in China to be affixed to the vehicles. This scenario still doesn't fit inside the rules... but would get the scooters into the country...

At any rate, the NHTSA would rather a US corp take responsibility for the vehicles over a foreign builder... then someone domestically is accountable...

The NHTSA folks know their laws... that's why the 'No' answer to most questions in regards to VIN codes and the true manufacturer. There's just no enforcement. Just like the EPA...

Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

Every scooter we have sold not only has the DOT plate attached, but also the matching VIN number etched in the frame. Sometimes in several locations. That is not something you do when the scooter comes off the boat in a steel crate wrapped totally in plastic.

That is done in China and indicates the type of "control" that is needed to name the importer the "manufacturer". Probably the difference between the smaller importers who are scratching their heads and wondering how the bigger guys can do it and the bigger guys who are actually doing it, is lawyers, paperwork, and management agreements.

I was in the conveniece store business for 20 years and always wondered how stores could change hands and the new owners could immediately still sell alcohol which is one of the most controlled substances in the US even though the new "owners" did not have an alcohol license yet. I found out the solution when I sold my last store. Management agreements. The new guy ran the store under a management agreement while I was still responsible for the licenses. It's done every day. If I had called the state agency that controls the licenses and asked the question about the legality they would have probably said no way. But the attornies knew how to draw up the paperwork and that same type of thing is done every day.

Not really legal to the letter of the law, but common practice. I would guess that the larger importers have attornies and reams of paperwork that will support what they are doing. And probably hope that the next guys don't figure the procedure out for a while.

I'll try to sumarize. The only way to get a scooter into the US with a VIN not from the original manufacturer of the scooter is for the importer to lie (, cheat and steal) . There are several options for going the path of lying... but they all equate to commiting fraud - illegal - wrong - unethical... and pretty much always intentional.

There are two possible root causes for these illegal actions... either out of ignorance or intentionally. You commented about lawyers passing paperwork... I don't think any of the current importers have lawyers or legal counsel that knows anything about the laws of importing vehicles. As far as I can tell, most lawyers haven't a clue about such things...

My belief is that most of it is intentional... if Baron, for example, has 50 containers of product coming into the country at a street value of $1M, do you think they would commit fraud in ignorance? Or would they just 'band-aid' (lie, cheat, steal) everything necessary to get their product into the country in order to resell? Which scenario is way more likely? In truth, Baron has their legal side covered...

It's like SE has said several times, you are either fully compliant with the law... or you are not. There is no half-assed option available...

I think that Mike S also makes a vaild general point in this thread... that importers are going to do whatever it takes to get their bikes into the country and if the Feds feel its wrong, then they will write the importer a stern letter. Voluntary compliance appears to be for those importers wanting to be in buss for the long term...

So that everyone on this forum understands in plain english... what comes to question for consumers is... if an importer / distributor can 'fudge' the law to get the scooters passed Customs - What other legal or moral boundaries will they cross?

Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

I guess your point did go over me. The original premise of this thread was Baron's statement:

"This bike (Furnace) is made in China by Jonway factory. It's their brand. It is then stamped with Tank name and a vin number that starts with "3CG", which means it's made in Mexico. I would really like to hear an explanation from NHTSA and EPA how this is legal."

I made the statement that TN'G does the same thing and tried to figure out myself how these things are possible by reading the law and the exceptions to that law and then I posted what I thought the process could be and my first hand observations. I was just trying to explain how this scenario can happen. As far as other importers and their ethics, I don't have a clue because the only two scooter importers that I do business with are Tank and Tn'g.

I really do think that the two companies mentioned above, who are also two of the most highly visible Chinese scooter importers in the US, do have access to and use import attorneys that do understand the intricacies of the law and that law definitely is not black and white like you would like to think.

If you think that the companies listed above are lying, cheating and stealing, or committing fraud then you really should be writing your letters to the government agencies and not arguing the fact in this forum.

If I were in your shoes or Barons shoes and felt that someone had the upper hand because they were not following the same rules as I had to follow, then I would be raising hell. Not here, but with the agencies that can actually do something.

I'm really not trying to take anyones side on this issue, but I do find it extremely interesting to be in the debate.

It is not my intention to take stabs at my competitors, or try to bring them down in some way. If I have given the wrong impression there, I do sincerely apologize. But I do get frustrated with many other importers who freely do whatever they want without any objections from the Feds...

>I guess your point did go over me. The original premise of this thread
>was Baron's statement:

And I was attempting to answer that for Lev... even though he already knows the answer. There's no enforcement... and so the importers do whatever they want...

>I really do think that the two companies mentioned above, who are
>also two of the most highly visible Chinese scooter importers in the
>US, do have access to and use import attorneys that do understand
>the intricacies of the law and that law definitely is not black and white
>like you would like to think.

Lawyers don't know the regs (40 & 49 CFR)... they just know how to manipulate the law to confuse the court system. I have yet to meet a lawyer who even knows what 40 CFR is. I would agree that they have lawyers at their disposal... but mostly for corp liability. Not Black & White? You need to read some of those rules again. No matter how hard I try to interpret the rules to my favor, it appears nearly impossible. An advantage of spelling them out in plain english. of course, you did interpret them differently initially... I had to add the factor of bringing thru Customs...

>If you think that the companies listed above are lying, cheating and
>stealing, or committing fraud then you really should be writing your
>letters to the government agencies and not arguing the fact in this
>forum.

Done... and done! Goes back to that lack of enforcement thing. But as I said before, as long as Tn'G is taking responsibility as a US Corp, the NHTSA will be good with it rather than having to chase a foreign manufacturer. I don't know about Tank... using a Mexican Corp to generate VINs for Chinese bikes. The NHTSA wouldn't like that at all...

>If I were in your shoes or Barons shoes and felt that someone had the
>upper hand because they were not following the same rules as I had
>to follow, then I would be raising hell. Not here, but with the agencies
>that can actually do something.

I guess there are a couple of things there... like I said, I'm not out to point fingers or destroy anyone (sorry if I have). I like doin my buss in my little corner of the country and keeping things easy. But I do get frustrated... and, after trying once or twice, you come to realize that they just don't really give a shit anyways... ( - ;

I guess it also comes down to the individual importer... if no one is making me follow the 'rules', and if there are no repercussions for not doing so, then why do I continue do so?

>I'm really not trying to take anyones side on this issue, but I do find it
>extremely interesting to be in the debate.

We're not debating... we're sharing information... ( - ; It's all just my opinion. I do feel rather strongly about all of it... but it's prolly not much of a 'crime' anyways. It seems if it were, there'd be a lot more enforcement. But then again, the NHTSA and EPA have admitted numerous times, that they have no idea what's goin on unless someone tells them...

Jim J...
Bandit MotorSports

Well see Mike... thats just it.... these guys want to import but don't WANT THE LIABILITY! So asking them to take all that on just so they can stamp em US made is a real sore spot. They don't want too. They don't want to take responsibilty. So they don't carry any MFG Liability insurance. None.... Nada....