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Subject: "Ohio Police Beating"
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Archived thread - Read only
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Buzz Bomb Kirk
Member since Jun-4-02
1565 posts |
Dec-01-03, 06:04 PM (EDT) |
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"Ohio Police Beating"
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- RE: Ohio Police Beating,
SCOTT
 , Dec-01-03, 08:13 PM, (1)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating,
chopper, Dec-01-03, 09:01 PM, (2)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating,
David K, Dec-01-03, 11:02 PM, (3)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
adamXYL, Dec-02-03, 11:23 AM, (9)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
David K, Dec-02-03, 11:57 AM, (10)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
SCOTT , Dec-02-03, 12:20 PM, (11)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
adamXYL, Dec-02-03, 01:03 PM, (13)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
chopper, Dec-02-03, 02:14 PM, (14)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
SCOTT , Dec-02-03, 05:49 PM, (21)
- There are no 'non-lethal' weapons,
Fidget, Dec-03-03, 10:14 AM, (25)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land),
tie_fightertk069 , Dec-02-03, 03:59 PM, (17)
- RE: Ohio Police Beating,
richard , Dec-05-03, 01:05 AM, (28)
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-01-03, 08:13 PM (EDT) |
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1. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #0
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Some teen here in Houston got shot because he reached into his pants. If would have just followed orders he could have avoided it.
Seems this burger eating guy did not follow orders either.When will people learn! SCOTT
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chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts |
Dec-01-03, 09:01 PM (EDT) |
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2. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #0
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just saw the video, sick. then again, in NY you can get shot 40-some-odd times for pulling out a wallet, so who knows. 
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richard
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 02:27 AM (EDT) |
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5. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #2
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>then again, in NY you can get shot 40-some-odd times for
>pulling out a wallet, so who knows. That NY incident was really unfortunate. The cops involved in that one got off with no punishment. One of the younger cops shouted "look out, he has a gun" and everyone started firing. They shot him about 16 times out of 40 some shots fired. Great shooting accuracy. How do they even explain that one? It shows you that if you believe something in your mind, it's as real as you think it is. They had it in their minds that he was the rapist and was reaching for a gun, even though he was just a resident sitting on his porch. The defense lawyers did a great job. They had the box of Kleenex on the table and some of the officers were using it to wipe their tears.
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David K
Member since Jun-7-02
4579 posts |
Dec-01-03, 11:02 PM (EDT) |
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3. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #0
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I hate Monday morning QBing this stuff, but here's a stab: I haven't seen the full tape, so I'm only going by a wire report and AP Video. From what I could see it looks like there was a scuffle, and he definitely was swinging at the cops (always a dumb move), and the cops tried to beat him into submission, but then it kept going... and going... about midway it seemed to me that the guy was reaching out to try and stop the beating. It makes me wonder why one of 'em never backed off and maced/pepper sprayed him or tried some other method to subdue him. Then again, the guy was dusted and weighed 400 pounds. Then again, there were five or six cops on the scene. It's not as clear cut as Rodney King IMHO. David K In my dreams, I slash your tires. BTSC
http://www.burgundytopz.com |
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 00:06 AM (EDT) |
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4. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #3
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From what I saw the cops ordered the criminal down, he resisted and took a swing while charging at one of the cops, the cops did what they are trained to do, the guy kept fighting, more cops came, done. I dont know of any cop that will let a 400lb drugged out dude charge them without protecting themselves. My father in law and 4 other cops fought a 120lb GIRL on PCP and he said that was the worse struggle he was ever in. 2 of the cops got slammed to the floor and it took a good long while to finally restrain her. Point is cops never know what the hell they are getting into when dealing with these types of unruly people. And all this, like so many other cases, could have been avoided if the guy just did as the cops asked. So easy. SCOTT P.S. I forsee a race card a coming in this thread!! |
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Fidget
Member since Feb-14-03
920 posts |
Dec-02-03, 10:25 AM (EDT) |
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6. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #4
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Race card has already been pulled. They were talking about it on the radio before I left work tonight. The first two times I saw that video, they ran a banner across the bottom of the screen so you couldn't see the size of the guy or what he was doing. I later saw the same clip and saw the size of this guy, and him swinging at the cops. When I saw the size of him the first thing I said was 'HOLY SHIT! That guy is huge!'. I've seen little skinny people on PCP rip the restraints off a gurney only using their forearms. I can only imagine what a 300# man on PCP, with that much mass behind him, could do. I assume this 300# man has the same over worked heart problems as other obese people, a little cocaine makes his heart speed up before it bursts. The PCP puts him in a rage and oblivious to any pain and reason. Cocaine psychosis (common catch all name) occurs when a person in full restraints is placed on their backs. The strain of them arcing their backs, and pulling against the restraints causes them to suffocate to death, or the strain bursts an artery. For this reason many OD's, and people flipping out on drugs, are placed on their sides and constantly monitored so this doesn't happen and they can breath. Don't know if this is what killed him, but it's a common side effect which would probably be made worse by his obesity and the strain from the fighting. ~Scott ~Scott
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It's all fun and games until someone farts in your helmet |
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Shimmercore
Member since Apr-10-03
204 posts |
Dec-02-03, 10:30 AM (EDT) |
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7. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #4
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>And all this, like so many other cases, could have been
>avoided if the guy just did as the cops asked. So easy. It really is that easy. I think we all know in this day and age that most cops have chips on their shoulders and it's best to cooperate with them whether you are innocent or guilty. If you take a swing at a cop, then your getting an ass whippin. That 400 lbs. guy could have just surrendered and he would be alive today. - Mike 
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Demon Larry
Member since Apr-11-03
90 posts |
Dec-02-03, 10:54 AM (EDT) |
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8. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #3
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41 year old male, on angel dust. swinging at cops. thats just asking for a beating. -larry 
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adamXYL
Member since Jun-3-02
2860 posts |
Dec-02-03, 11:23 AM (EDT) |
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9. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #0
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 11:24 AM (EDT)
thus far it seems everyone has vaild opinions backed with facts:
1. buzz bomb- ...seemed like a good topic.
to kill some time on the anything board, yes it is.2.SCOTT- did not follow orders 3. chopper- just saw the video, sick
yeah and it's on the news here around the clock 4. fidget- Race card has already been pulled
yes it has and this police force has been under investigation for racial profiling, exsesive force and brutality for nearly a decade 5. shimmercore- That 400 lbs. guy could have just surrendered and he would be alive today.
also true 6. demon larry- 41 year old male, on angel dust. swinging at cops. thats just asking for a beating true again... here's the problem i have, everyone is so quick to pick sides. you either deomonize the suspect (SCOTT i'm looking in your direction) and defend the cops no matter what OR you damn the cops with out second thought.
a man is dead at the hands of a "protective" force due to them following procedure and exersising the training they recieved. there is plenty of non-lethal weapons cops should be armed with. we need to make a movment to change the way police are armed and trained, it should be strictly defensive. now this is a bad example because the the suspect was severly overweight, had an enlarged heart, history of heart disease and was tested positive for cocaine and PCP. however this is the same rant i spew everytime a cincinnati officer kills someone. adamXYL adamXYL / peakSC / Serveterans /
LcUSA "that's how we do it in
'The Springs'..." www.peakscooterclub.com
www.tenyearlates.com |
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David K
Member since Jun-7-02
4579 posts |
Dec-02-03, 11:57 AM (EDT) |
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10. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #9
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"a man is dead at the hands of a "protective" force due to them following procedure and exersising the training they recieved." Is there a coroner's report out already? I may be seriously misinformed, but I'm pretty sure we do not yet know what actually caused his death. I wouldn't be surprised if he died from the beating, but I also wouldn't be surprised to hear the PCP gave him a fatal heart attack, either. David K In my dreams, I slash your tires. BTSC
http://www.burgundytopz.com |
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adamXYL
Member since Jun-3-02
2860 posts |
Dec-02-03, 12:57 PM (EDT) |
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12. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #10
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 12:20 PM (EDT) |
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11. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #9
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"here's the problem i have, everyone is so quick to pick sides. you either deomonize the suspect (SCOTT i'm looking in your direction) and defend the cops no matter what" I for one do not defend the cops no matter what. I wont defend bad cops, just like I wont defend bad mailmen, bad drivers, bad teachers, bad etc.
"OR you damn the cops with out second thought."
This happens way too much. There is a culture that teaches this type of thinking. "To hell with authority" is how they are raised. "a man is dead at the hands of a "protective" force due to them following procedure and exersising the training they recieved. there is plenty of non-lethal weapons cops should be armed with." Like what? "we need to make a movment to change the way police are armed and trained, it should be strictly defensive." Ok, armed with what and trained how? "now this is a bad example because the the suspect was severly overweight, had an enlarged heart, history of heart disease and was tested positive for cocaine and PCP." This guy was playing russian roulette. Too bad. But people must take responsibility for their actions and not blame the cops each and everytime. SCOTT adamXYL
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adamXYL
Member since Jun-3-02
2860 posts |
Dec-02-03, 01:03 PM (EDT) |
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13. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #11
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there were 6 officers on the scene, why not pin him down with crowd control sheilds?
as far as training and nonlethal weapons, how about pins and holds, wresteling or judo type manuvers rather than hitting someone with a stick?
as far as weapons go, we should stick an R&D team on it.this is actually a really big step for the cincinnati police, ussually they just shoot. BTW, there is a minute nad a half missing from the tape and there is an FBI investigation on this specific incident adamXYL / peakSC / Serveterans /
LcUSA "that's how we do it in
'The Springs'..." www.peakscooterclub.com
www.tenyearlates.com |
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chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts |
Dec-02-03, 02:14 PM (EDT) |
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14. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #13
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yeah, those 90 missing seconds between him being cool and throwing punches might shed a little light on what happened. re: weapons, the army and the police have had non-lethal weapons R&D going on for a loooong time. some of the stuff they've come out with has been pretty good, but they never use them for real. i wonder why? i mean, what is better at subduing a suspect, some kinda sticky foam that ties them up completely, or a minute long beating?which is more moral? as long as the only things cops are given are sticks and guns, that's what they'll use.
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Buzz Bomb Kirk
Member since Jun-4-02
1565 posts |
Dec-02-03, 02:31 PM (EDT) |
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15. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #14
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I've seen specials on some of the stuff they are R&Ding and it's some pretty cool stuff. They have a thing that shoots flashing green light at you, and if you look at it it makes you colapse to the ground and start vomiting. They also have a sonic gun that shoots sound waves that can make all your muscles turn into Jello for a few minutes and supposedly makes you lose control of your bowels. Man I gotta get one of those. Guns that shoot nets, rubber bullets and beanbags, tasers, mace, etc etc they got all kindsa neat toys that are non lethal, but I think for the most part the fancy stuff is cost prohibitive. http://www.myspace.com/buzzbombkirk |
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chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts |
Dec-02-03, 03:06 PM (EDT) |
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16. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #15
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"but I think for the most part the fancy stuff is cost prohibitive. " after a coupla lawsuits, i think it's about to start looking cheap...
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Buzz Bomb Kirk
Member since Jun-4-02
1565 posts |
Dec-02-03, 04:04 PM (EDT) |
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18. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #16
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Good point. I think a large portion of their budget is for insurance against stuff like this. Give the cops some laser tag guns and nerf bats and I'm sure the insurance cost would drop. Who is to say that someone can't sue 'cause they crapped in their pants, though? Sure they'd still be alive, but if we are just talking lawsuits it's probably cheaper for cops to kill instead of mame (or make them crap) because dead people don't sue. I've heard the same thing said about home invaders from a cop "dead men don't sue, make sure if you shoot him you kill him". It's an extreme comparison, but you kind of see what I'm saying? http://www.myspace.com/buzzbombkirk |
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David K
Member since Jun-7-02
4579 posts |
Dec-02-03, 11:45 PM (EDT) |
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23. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #15
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"They have a thing that shoots flashing green light at you, and if you look at it it makes you colapse to the ground and start vomiting." Hell, they should just hire me to go ride along with the boys in blue and lift my shirt and flash my beer gut everytime there's trouble. It has the same effect. David K In my dreams, I slash your tires. BTSC
http://www.burgundytopz.com |
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chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts |
Dec-03-03, 10:11 AM (EDT) |
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24. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #23
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MY EYES! THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!
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Fidget
Member since Feb-14-03
920 posts |
Dec-03-03, 10:16 AM (EDT) |
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26. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #23
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Your gut, my chins....they'd never know what hit em!! ~Scott ~Scott
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It's all fun and games until someone farts in your helmet |
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 05:49 PM (EDT) |
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21. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #13
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"there were 6 officers on the scene, why not pin him down with crowd control sheilds?" You have to have crowd control shields with you in the first place, and how did they know it was going to turn out the way it did? I cant imagine every cop having a riot shield everytime he pulls over someone, or goes to a call, or whatever.
"as far as training and nonlethal weapons, how about pins and holds, wresteling or judo type manuvers rather than hitting someone with a stick?" Seems fair if they knew 100% that the person in question would not have a gun. But cops never know. And, pinholds and judo would not phase a guy or girl on PCP or other drug.
"as far as weapons go, we should stick an R&D team on it.
this is actually a really big step for the cincinnati police, ussually they just shoot." They do here in Houston as well. Most of the criminals deserve it. "BTW, there is a minute nad a half missing from the tape and there is an FBI investigation on this specific incident " Now that may be an interesting twist to it all. SCOTT
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Fidget
Member since Feb-14-03
920 posts |
Dec-03-03, 10:14 AM (EDT) |
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25. "There are no 'non-lethal' weapons"
In response to message #13
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Bean bag guns, tasers, stingball grenade are classified as 'less than lethal'. There are no 'non-lethal' weapons. This may sound like a play on words, but its not. All these things can kill, and have, on average they don't. The average bean bag round has 1/2 ounce of bird shot in a square sleeve made of, I think, poly-kevlar blend. These rounds can't be used at close distance due to the force of the impact. At longer distances the bags loose velocity and accuracy due to their shape not being aerodynamic. If the bag rips, there is bird shot going towards whoever instead of a bag. These are also shot out of a shotgun, which is kept in a cop car, and can't be used in a scuffle. Tazers work if there is a good skin contact, or the barbs both make skin contact in a close enough area to cause the current to make the muscles in that area contract. One barb in the skin doesn't work, and there has to be a sustained blast of current. Pepper spray doesn't work on everyone. It doesn't do much to me, while others start throwing up. By 'crowd control shields', I think you are talking about riot shields which are used as shields from thrown objects. What makes you think any type of shield could be used to pin him down? He's on PCP, inhumanly strong, 300+#, and not feeling any pain while tossing cops around. If you're playing the why-didn't-they game, why didn't they just pull a giant feather mattress outa the trunk and lay it on him? Police use various control holds that rely on pain as negative reinforcement to obtain compliance, i.e. joint locks and wrist holds. Doped up people don't feel any pain. I saw those specials on the military crowd control weapons. All that stuff is in research. Deal with what they have to use and not what was on tv being used on normal people who weren't doped up. When you throw drugs into the mix, usually none of these things work. PCP causes people to break bones and not feel it. They probably could have shot him, it would have been the easiest and quickest way to control the situation. I'm sure the size differences, and getting thrown around, would have played a big part in the justification of that. I keep hearing that Cincinnati cops are all racist, I highly doubt that an entire police force is out to get the black man or any ethnic race. The news said that one of the officers there was black, what does that make him? There may be those that are, were these those guys? That sounds like a blanket statement. To me, thats like saying all scooterist are gay or all blacks are drug dealing criminals, we know thats not true. I think the dash cameras in the cop cars are activated when they turn on the overhead lights. I heard that they didn't show up lights and siren, but when things looked like they were gonna go to hell one of them standing near the car turned on the lights to activate the camera. I didn't hear anything about missing time. Are they talking about arrival time compared to when the camera was activated? Or is there a missing chunk in the middle somewhere? I'm curious to know. CNN also said that the White Castle security camera was also recording it. ~Scott ~Scott
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It's all fun and games until someone farts in your helmet |
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tie_fightertk069
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 03:59 PM (EDT) |
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17. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #9
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>a man is dead at the hands of a "protective" force due to
>them following procedure and exersising the training they
>recieved. there is plenty of non-lethal weapons cops should
>be armed with. I'm with ya on that one man, I've done a lot of research on non- and less-than-leathal alternitives for police and military forces, and in general the technology is there to start implementation of systems that work, and work well. The big issue is funding.... |
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adamXYL
Member since Jun-3-02
2860 posts |
Dec-02-03, 04:46 PM (EDT) |
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19. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #17
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when ever it comes back to funding i always feel bad because it's like saying "we'd like to save your life but... we'd rather save a buck" "if dollars could die people would care"
-protest sign from the TABD protest adamXYL / peakSC / Serveterans /
LcUSA "that's how we do it in
'The Springs'..." www.peakscooterclub.com
www.tenyearlates.com |
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scott
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 05:44 PM (EDT) |
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20. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #19
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-03 AT 05:45 PM (EDT)
It all comes back to the public in the end. Will they accept a tax increase, so the police can carry a kindler, gentler baton? Or will they reallocate funds from a new highway or from school books so the local drug dealer is treated better upon his arrest?
scott
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-02-03, 05:57 PM (EDT) |
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22. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #19
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I think some of y'all are giving excuses for people's bad behavior.
If people took more responsibility for their actions, got off the drugs, stopped robbing and killing, then this "save life save a buck" deal would not be an issue. SCOTT |
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chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts |
Dec-03-03, 10:17 AM (EDT) |
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27. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #22
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at the same time, if cops would note that not all situations are most easily dealt with by a few good swings of the baton or a swift kick (or 41 bullets), this deal wouldn't be as much of a huge issue either. in many of these cases, the police who perform these acts hide beind their shield, saying 'well, we're cops, we have a dangerous job', like in the Diallo case. when they are exonerated, they act like they didn't do anything at all. that is not 'taking responsibility for their actions' either. the big thing for the police force is that they are afraid to claim responsibility for actions like beatings etc. because that would open them up for lawsuits, whereas a cop who gets cracked in the head by a drug dealer has no real recourse to sue the guy for his hospital bill (and health insurance for cops is astronimical). so they have to protect themselves, and they get proactively violent.
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John
Member since Jun-6-02
5724 posts |
Dec-05-03, 10:48 AM (EDT) |
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29. "RE: Ohio Police Beating (in XYL land)"
In response to message #22
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>I think some of y'all are giving excuses for people's bad
>behavior.
>If people took more responsibility for their actions, got
>off the drugs, stopped robbing and killing, then this "save
>life save a buck" deal would not be an issue.
>
>SCOTT
BAH! People aren't going to stand responsible for their actions. Deal with it. More cops and more prisons.
Bad cops, well, there's only so much the departments are going to do about it. Why? I don't know, bureaucracy maybe. Give the cops better tools to do their jobs. This comes down to you and me as citizens. You want a better PD? Maybe you ought to consider paying a higher price for it (capitalism after all). That price is paid through taxes. Get used to it America. Scott, you of all people would be the last one to take a utopian stance I would have thought. Unforgiven SC - the NEW home of Unforgiven SC http://www.unforgivensc.net 
Texas is the reason |
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richard
unregistered user
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Dec-05-03, 01:05 AM (EDT) |
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28. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #0
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Some guest on Scarborough's show said that the police video camera switch is the same as the flasher switch on the car, and that when the officer turned off his flashers when he arrived, the camera turned off with it. Then he turned the camera back on when the situation got out of hand. That's a new one on me? I thought the camera is always running during a call. |
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John
Member since Jun-6-02
5724 posts |
Dec-05-03, 10:49 AM (EDT) |
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30. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #28
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It does on all the ones where cops get shot for enforcing speed laws. Unforgiven SC - the NEW home of Unforgiven SC http://www.unforgivensc.net
Texas is the reason |
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richard
unregistered user
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Dec-05-03, 11:33 AM (EDT) |
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31. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #30
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There's something screwy going on with that case. Even when the situation is peaceful, the camera is always recording during a stop in case something goes wrong.
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SCOTT
unregistered user
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Dec-05-03, 12:08 PM (EDT) |
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32. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #31
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The camera can not be rolling every minute the police is in his car, and can not be left to the police officer to turn it on when making a stop or whatever. They do obviously have some power to change, but mainly it stays on when the lights are on. And dont beat yourself with thinking anything is wrong in that case. I really cant see the cops getting into that situation and one of them having to stop to go turn on the camera. Plus, who says he did'nt turn off his lights for a moment thinking it was going to be harmless? SCOTT |
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David K
Member since Jun-7-02
4579 posts |
Dec-05-03, 12:19 PM (EDT) |
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33. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #32
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I listened to an interview with the mayor of cinci on NPR last night. He said the one on his PD uses have a remote control, and it is procedure to turn it on during any stop mainly for two reasons: to cover their asses from trumped up civil suits, to develop new procedure. David K In my dreams, I slash your tires. BTSC
http://www.burgundytopz.com |
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richard
unregistered user
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Dec-05-03, 12:37 PM (EDT) |
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34. "RE: Ohio Police Beating"
In response to message #33
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Usually it's on from the beginning of the stop. I saw one clip when the police searched a woman who was acting peacefully and she later accused the police of fondling her. They had the whole incident on tape from the start and were able to fend off a lawsuit. I don't see why the camera would have been turned off. It doesn't really waste much tape to have it going right from the start of the stop. I heard there is some other video from a camera in the store nearby.
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