>direction=right]

It's well documented that he used US supplied chemical weapons against the Kurds, so don't play dumb. There are huge doubts as to whether he had any at the time the US decided to save us all by invading a country that wasn't threatening anyone and never attacked the US. Certainly no evidence has ever been found, surprise surprise.

SCOTT

I may have made freinds with some people who sunbsequently turned out to be nutcases, but I sure as shit never armed them to the teeth with WMD by way of a hello. Stupidity compounding stupidity.

And the weapons supplied by the U.S. were all used against Iran? Every gallon? And in any case, that makes it OK even if true?

Anyway, I 100% agree that the US screwed up in giving Saddam weapons to fight the bigger enemy of that time-Iran, but this type of "back patting" has been going on in history for a long time. The US did not invent it.

Every country screws up, and the US is one of them. But, the US is now taking care of that mistake. Hopefully a lesson learned.

Hey, just be happy the monkey is caught.

SCOTT

My entire point is that the US hasn't learned any lessons and is, right now, making and hardening mistakes which will haunt the entire west for generations to come. It's like a completely drunk, beefy construction worker trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer in a childrens nursery.

That you don't question the actions of your incompetant, arrogant government is a cause for deep concern, if not surprise.

But I dont know about your first paragraph. If you are referring to more terrorism, well, the US and the west have been a target for terrorism long before Bush came around.

SCOTT

That is not at issue, what is is the heavy handed response. The way to compat terrorism is with intelligence, just as the best, least destructive way to kill a fly is with a spider's web, not a hammer.
My genuine fear is that the response overkill in Iraq and Afghanistan are much more likely to promotye terrorism than abate it. I also beleive that Bush isn't interested in winning a "War on terrorism", it's his whole justification for existance.

All this aside, when the hell are you going to lead me to that pot of gold?

SCOTT

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

Firstly, fuck you, I'll criticise who I damn well please. I do not speak for my nation, nor does my nation speak for me. Just as you do not speak for your nation, but yourself.

Secondly, as to benefits derived from your military presence, from what I see it's current deployment does more harm than good, making terrorists rather than fighting them.

Thirdly, if it is a choice between timid neutrality and profoundly ignorant, ill judged, poorly applied force, I'll choose neutrality every time

Fourthly, the aid given to Germany and France and indeed Iraq was not given altruisticly. Also, it is worth noting that US has by far the worst foreign Aid to GDP ratio or any first world country, and that includes the aid given to Israel. Look it up.

As you can see, US foreign AID greatly favours Israel, also it is proportionally the stingiest of all nations surveryed. What you say just doesn't stand up.

% of USA aid 1988-1989
Israel 12.5
Egypt 9.5
Pakistan 3.9
El Salvador 3.3
India 1.9
Philippines 1.8

Also:
Linking Military and Development Aid Spending
Country Development Aid
as % of GDP Military Spending as % of GDP Military/Aid
Ratio

A = AID as % GDP
M = Military Spending as % GDP
R = Ratio
A M R
1. Greece 0.2% 4.8% 32.0%
2. United States 0.1% 3.0% 30.0%
3. Italy 0.2% 2.0% 13.3%
4. United Kingdom 0.2% 2.5% 10.4%
5. Portugal 0.3% 2.2% 8.5%
6. Australia 0.3% 2.2% 8.5%
7. France 0.4% 2.7% 6.9%
8. Germany 0.3% 1.5% 5.8%
9. Spain 0.2% 1.3% 5.7%
10. Belgium 0.3% 1.4% 4.7%
11. Canada 0.3% 1.3% 4.6%
12. New Zealand 0.3% 1.1% 4.1%
13. Finland 0.3% 1.2% 3.6%
14. Austria 0.3% 0.9% 3.5%
15. Switzerland 0.4% 1.1% 3.1%
16. Sweden 0.7% 2.1% 3.0%
17. Japan 0.3% 1.0% 2.9%
18. Ireland 0.3% 0.8% 2.6%
19. Norway 0.9% 2.2% 2.4%
20. Netherlands 0.8% 1.8% 2.3%
21. Denmark 1.0% 1.6% 1.6%
22. Luxembourg 0.7% 0.8% 1.2%

Average 0.39% 1.78% 7.3%
Based on data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and 1999 data from the OECD. Countries listed are all 22 members of the OECD Development Assistance Committee.

"President Bush’s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.
"

And yes, you posted some nice figures, but where was Ireland on the list?? Oh yeah, on the side lines again, looking in from the outside. Enjoying the perks from sacrifices made by other countries.

And as a side note, Ireland is ranked higher in corruption than the US.
http://nationmaster.com/graph-T/gov_cor

Your citizens are taxed higher than the US.
http://nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_bud_rev_cap

Ireland gave less than 3% of what the U.S. did. Why bother?

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

Well that start off gives a great tone. Milan, are'nt you the one who critisizes people who throw insults and remarks like the one above? Or do you say that only to people with different opinions than yours?

"Secondly, as to benefits derived from your military presence, from what I see it's current deployment does more harm than good, making terrorists rather than fighting them."

Well, if you are looking for only the bad things, then that is all that you will see. Try looking for some of the good things that are happening over there because of the US/UK involvement.

SCOTT

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

SCOTT

P.S. They all sound the same though!!

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

That's the deal with the scooter club I am in. No politics or religion.

SCOTT

Insults are never good (though I told some people to fuck off on this board) BUT also you can't say to somebody "you can't critisize the US" because that's where the healthy discussion becomes a deathmatch. Also, defending the US by attacking Ireland is not the way to go and I can see how it can be frustarting for SOC. When somebody tries to shut me up and tell me that I don't have the right to critisize, I take it very personally and is equal if not worse than a 'fuck you'. Not defending/attacking anybody, just my 2¢. We are not talking about Ireland, we are talking about the US. If there's something in Ireland that should be duscussed, let's start another thread.

I just find it odd how SOC is so quick to criticize the US, when his country is far from any type of Utopia.

So, SOC, by all means proceed with my blessing. But you're country has issues too, so don't be sore if we point them out.

Sláinte agus saol chugat!

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

Sláinte agus saol chugat!

So, because my country has problems, which, by the way were nothing to do woith my post, I can't criticise the most stupid foreign policy ion US history? You want to talk about Ireland, start another thead and you can find out my opinions theere. You think I don't know my country's ptroblems? One point I will make is you said Ireland gave about 3% of what the US gave last year. Well look at the size of the two countries, their populations and their resources and get a sense of proportion and you should feel suitably thick for bringing it up in the first place.

Also, my "nice figures", nice of you to dismiss them so readily, but if you study them properly, the US gives the lowest proportion of aid as a % of GDP, aproximately 0.1% as oppoased to Irelands 0.3%.

Go figure.

"SHOW ME THE MON-AYYYYY!!!!"

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

Also, those poor Israelis need every cent you can send to buy more US military hardware, which Arab nations see as... oh fuck it, what's the point trying to explian to you. Dig you own hole, just don't drag me in there with you.

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

No one has the right to censor anothers criticism.

>"Secondly, as to benefits derived from your military
>presence, from what I see it's current deployment does more
>harm than good, making terrorists rather than fighting
>them."
>
>Well, if you are looking for only the bad things, then that
>is all that you will see. Try looking for some of the good
>things that are happening over there because of the US/UK
>involvement.
>
>SCOTT

No SCOTT, I busy myself with reality and facts, not what I want to see. Try it sometime. You may find the glare hurts your eyes for a while after you try opening them for the first time, but you'll get used to it.

Yes, you busy yourself with SOME reality and SOME facts, but ONLY the negative. I, on the other hand, acknowledge the good and the bad. Big difference there between the both of us.

Again, no pot o gold for me?

SCOTT

No pot of gold but a patented blinker removal system is winging it's way to you as we speak. Note the way I refrain from calling you a thick as pig shit, redneck, KFC munchin'white bread, chicken hawk texas half wit, so there's no need to go on about me being a lepruchaun, it really is in poor taste.

So, when will you be touring the US again in the Riverdance show?

SCOTT

Around about the same time you grow a third finger.

Scott, you can't mroe wrong here. Most of the "Aid" we give has lots of strings attached. For instance all that money we give in aid to Isreal has to be spent on American merchandise, especially military aid. Why else do they use the M-16 over the Galil? This was also true after WWII. Many of hte reconstruciton companies that rebuilt western Europe were American construciton companies.

So it's our tax dollars, buying American goods and services and the profit goes to the rich. Wow, isn't that really just corprate welfare?

Unjoy,
Das Twit

sir, why do you hate America?

I see what you are trying to do. Thing is, I dont have to agree with, let's say, everything Bush does. Nor do I have to disagree with everything he does. Big difference there.
Same goes for the US, or anything else for that matter. It's called free thinking. Not being one-sided.

SCOTT

i certainly don't. just most of it.

SCOTT

The Achievement:

1) Saddam is caught. GREAT! Nobody liked the guy regardless of difference in opinion on war and other things. Everybody's HAPPY. God bless America!

The Price:

2) It took 9 MONTHS for the greatest military power in the world to catch a bearded bum living in a cellar. Cost: $25 million, just for the bribe.
3) 200-300 American lives
4) 7000 innocent Iraqi lives (conservative estimate)
5) Billion and billions of dollars, still ongoing.
6) Earned mistrust (read: hate) from the rest of the civilized world.

And what is this capture to do with terrorism? 9/11?

That's enough facts to wipe the smile off anybody's face unless you are so far up Bush's ass that you can't read this post.

I'd say this was the most expensive election campaign, like, EVER, dude.

The Achievement:

"1) Saddam is caught. GREAT! Nobody liked the guy regardless of difference in opinion on war and other things. Everybody's HAPPY. God bless America!"

But were'nt you and your cronies slamming Bush for not finding him? Do you not see the good that will and already has come out of this?

"The Price:

2) It took 9 MONTHS for the greatest military power in the world to catch a bearded bum living in a cellar. Cost: $25 million, just for the bribe."

So? He's caught. You need to practice patience young grasshopper.

"3) 200-300 American lives"

Yep, that sucks.

"4) 7000 innocent Iraqi lives (conservative estimate)"

Yep, that sucks.

"5) Billion and billions of dollars, still ongoing."

War costs. Everyone knows that. I dont know why it comes as a big surprise to some people.

"6) Earned mistrust (read: hate) from the rest of the civilized world."

No, not really. But if so, trust can always be gained back.

"And what is this capture to do with terrorism? 9/11? "

Here is where patience comes into play again. He supported terrorism. And more things will come out.

"That's enough facts to wipe the smile off anybody's face unless you are so far up Bush's ass that you can't read this post."

I dont have the face up the Bushbum, and I am still smiling.

"I'd say this was the most expensive election campaign, like, EVER, dude"

You sure do sound californian! Like, really!!!

SCOTT

I didn't ONLY look towards the bad, I gave the facts. It's not my fault that there's only 1 good thing against 5 super bad things. Why do you blindly defend everything that US is doing in Iraq? The furthest you went to disagree with the US government policies is by saying: "it sucks". Even if it's something really, really wrong by anybody's standards.

If you go back and re-read what I wrote, you will see what I was saying that sucks----the deaths! Deaths of US soldiers and civilians is not a US government policy. But it is a part of war.
I guess I can turn it around and say "why do you blindly put down everything the US is doing in Iraq?"
Again, read my "it's ever so typical" statement and it will apply.

SCOTT

Whoah, ever hear of once bitten twice shy.

Actual coffee came out my nose! Too funny!

scott

"I forgave my enemies,
but I never forgot their names" DBL

How about Bush Sr or Jr saying "ya we screwed up" and now we're gonna fix it. That would actually be the best start. it's called being honest after all.

>Hey, just be happy the monkey is caught.

Actually I am. But it does linger in teh back of my mind if things will actually get any better (for USA) over there.

Unjoy,
Das Twit

Saddam will be tried not only for crimes internal to Iraq, but for war crimes during the war with Iran, for starting the war with Iran, for crimes committed during the invasion of Kuwait, for invading Kuwait, and for killing a whole slew of Jordanians, as well. The region and the world will demand an international trial for international crimes.

Seeing as how there are only a handful of judges with any relevant experience trying international crimes (such as the judges involved in the war crimes trials related to the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia), those judges will be tapped to be involved.

That being the case, this won't be the show trial that perhaps some U.S. authorities want. And that means all the evidence will come out. It will be entertaining to watch Rummy and his cronies squirm throughout the process. Expect a low public profile from that creep once the show starts.

David K

In my dreams, I slash your tires.

The other info about the U.S. selling WMD to Saddam came out accidentally when the House Bank was being investigated in the early 90's.

~Scott

Reagan removed Iraq from the terrorist list in February 1982.